Do I need to know about NUAs?

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Welcome to Something More with Chris Boyd.

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Chris Boyd is a Certified Financial Planner Practitioner

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and Senior Vice President and Financial Advisor at

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Wealth Enhancement Group, one of the nation's largest

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registered investment advisors.

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We call it Something More because we'd like

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to talk not only about those important dollar

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and cents issues, but also the quality of

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life issues that make the money matters matter.

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Here he is, your fulfillment facilitator, your partner

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in prosperity, advising clients on Cape Cod and

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across the country.

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Here's your host, Jay Christopher Boyd.

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Welcome to another episode of Something More with

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Chris Boyd.

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I'm Chris Boyd.

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I'm here with Jeff Perry, and we want

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to welcome our guest, Andy Ives.

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He is from the Ed Slott & Company.

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He's one of the and company, I guess.

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Andy, you and your team do such a

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great job with the IRA help that you

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provide.

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Ed Slott, of course, is such a great

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wealth of information for so many years, but

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you all do such a great job and

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love having you as a guest.

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Thanks for being with us.

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Yeah, thank you.

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Happy to be here.

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I've been enjoying the program you guys put

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on for advisors.

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It's funny.

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You think you know a lot about this

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stuff.

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Until you actually get into the weeds that

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you guys produce so much depth of content,

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I had no idea all that I didn't

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know, of course.

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But it's been a great education and I

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think it enhanced my professional skills.

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I really appreciate that.

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You want to talk about Ed Slott &

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Company and all that you guys do?

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Well, that's good to hear.

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I hear that from a lot of our

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member advisors.

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We've got about 500 members across the country.

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These are advisors that are looking to extend

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their educational knowledge base with IRAs and retirement

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plans.

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When we do our programs, anybody can come

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to a two-day program and basically they

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drink from a firehose.

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We hammer them with as much information as

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possible and they come away saying exactly what

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you just said.

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I didn't know what I didn't know.

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So if they're looking to become a member,

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they're certainly welcome to do so.

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But yeah, keep an eye out for Ed

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Slott programs across the country.

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We do a couple a year and a

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virtual one each year.

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Even if you come to the two-day

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meeting, you'll walk away with a great manual

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and a ton of new information.

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That's so true.

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I just did a refresher on that because

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it did just so much content.

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I think I got more out of it

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the second time than I did the first.

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One of the things that you talked about

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was what we want to talk about today,

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and that was NUA.

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I keep coming across this recently, just it

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had come up a few times.

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So maybe it was more on my radar

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after our going through this again recently, but

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it's the kind of thing I've been familiar

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with.

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I've run across over the years, but there's

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some details and nuances and things to be

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aware of.

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And I just thought this would be a

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really great episode for our listeners.

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And by the way, I'd be willing to

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bet whether you're a professional or a novice,

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you probably have seen Ed Slott on PBS

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or something like that.

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So you're familiar with the kind of expertise

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and information on IRA information we get.

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So, Andy, let's talk about what is an

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NUA?

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Let's start with that.

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Yeah.

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Well, Net Unrealized Appreciation.

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So NUA stands for Net Unrealized Appreciation, and

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it is becoming more and more popular.

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I do present in our manual that I

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do present the NUA section.

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And I always ask when I go on

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stage, and there'll be like 350 advisors there

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from across the country.

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And I always ask who here has done

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an NUA transaction for a client.

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And over the years, more and more hands

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have gone up.

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So it is definitely becoming more and more

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prevalent.

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But basically what it is, it's a tax

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strategy that can help reduce the taxes paid

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on company stock and the appreciation of company

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stock that you might hold within your work

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plan, like a 401k.

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So this is for, let's say a company,

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someone who's participated in a company plan and

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the employer says, and if you want, you

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can buy our stock basically.

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Right.

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And so they have not only money set

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aside for retirement, but specifically in their company

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stock.

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There, we talk about as advisors, oftentimes the,

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some of the hazards of that, you know,

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lived through the Enron era and all that

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kind of thing where people can have too

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many eggs in one basket with their income

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and their wealth.

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So it's always a good idea to keep

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a limit to how much, but in any

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event, let's assume you have this opportunity and

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you've had this commitment to kind of buy

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your company.

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So now what are some triggering events that

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could sort of give someone this opportunity to,

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in essence, maybe you should, instead of the

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events, we should talk about what can you

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do?

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What's the virtue of this NUA process?

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How is it advantageous?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And you're right.

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I agree with you on the whole concentrated

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securities thing.

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You know, we always preach diversification is key,

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but you know how real life works.

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A lot of people just plow as much

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money as they can into their 401k and

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they just buy their company stock or they

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buy the actual stock or they buy a

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stock fund.

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You can do this with a stock fund

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as well.

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But the way it works is this.

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I was a good, I was going to

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ask you about that.

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I'm glad you mentioned that.

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Yeah.

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So that's one for sure.

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We can talk about that in a little

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more detail of how that works later on.

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But I like to explain it by saying,

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what would happen if you didn't do NUA?

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So let's say hypothetically a person has, they

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bought a million dollars of company stock in

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their 401k over their years of buying this

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company stock.

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And let's say that their cost basis, the

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amount that they paid for those shares over

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the years, the average cost basis was $200

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,000.

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And their appreciation over all those years is

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$800,000.

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If this person did not pursue NUA, they

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were never told about it.

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Their financial advisor didn't know about it.

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And they just went their business.

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They would probably at some point roll the

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401k into an IRA after they retired, the

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million dollars in stock would go over to

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the IRA.

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And then over time they would sell and

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withdraw it.

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And ultimately as they took that money out

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of the account or the IRA, they would

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pay ordinary income tax on the full $1

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million.

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And they would be blind to any benefits

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that they might've had.

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Typical case, right?

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Typical case.

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If that person had had a knowledgeable financial

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advisor, like one of you guys, and that

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person was told about NUA, what they could

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have done was with the NUA strategy, paid

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long-term capital gains on the 800,000

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and ordinary income on only the 200,000

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of cost basis.

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So that is the NUA strategy in a

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nutshell, the tax benefit in a nutshell.

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It's the spread between paying ordinary income on

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the $800,000 or long-term capital gains

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on the $800,000.

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That difference can lead to tens and even

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hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax savings.

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People probably understand this, but sometimes we think,

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oh, capital gains, that's unappealing.

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But in reality, what you just described is

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advantageous because capital gains are always less than

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income tax.

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So that's the desire.

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Now, one of the things that comes to

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my mind is what if I don't necessarily

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want to pay the tax on a million

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dollars or just $800,000, $200,000 at

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one time?

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What if I only wanted to deal with

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some portion of it?

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Right, right.

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That's a good question.

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Yeah.

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So I went through basically the science of

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NUA, the math.

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This is the fixed numbers.

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But there is an art to applying NUA

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called the art of NUA.

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And that's identifying the tipping point where it

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makes sense for a client.

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I've had situations where we'll use the same

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numbers, where a person said, I can't afford

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the tax hit on a $200,000 distribution

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from my 401k.

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Is there any way we can massage that?

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You could do a partial NUA distribution.

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Let's say this person says, I can only

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afford the tax on $100,000 now.

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You could take half of those shares and

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take half of those shares out of the

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account and only pay ordinary income on $100

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,000.

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And then you would have $400,000 of

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appreciation that you would, quote, unquote, that you

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would NUA.

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Now the other shares, the other half of

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those shares, if you roll those over to

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your IRA, you will never be able to

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do NUA on those shares.

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So that opportunity is lost.

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So this is only at the time of

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the transfer.

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That's right.

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So let me back up a little bit

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as far as if you wanted to do

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the NUA transaction, how does it work?

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This person that's got this million dollars in

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their 401k, they've probably got some other mutual

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funds in cash, et cetera.

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To qualify for an NUA distribution, the stocks,

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the company stock are transferred in kind out

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of that 401k into a regular non-qualified

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brokerage account.

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That's the distribution from the plan.

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Everything else that remains in that plan, whether

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it's the half the shares or the funds

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or the cash or whatever, typically gets rolled

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over to an IRA.

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You have to empty the 401k.

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It's a lump sum distribution.

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You're basically cashing out of that 401k.

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Non-NUA stock goes to an IRA.

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NUA shares are transferred into a non-qualified

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brokerage account.

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That's your distribution.

275
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That triggers the taxable payout.

276
00:10:20,670 --> 00:10:22,430
And that's where you have the ordinary income

277
00:10:22,430 --> 00:10:24,550
due in the year of the distribution.

278
00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:26,150
So the year that you do this NUA

279
00:10:26,150 --> 00:10:27,770
transaction, you do have to pay the taxes

280
00:10:27,770 --> 00:10:31,030
on ordinary income on the cost basis.

281
00:10:31,790 --> 00:10:34,970
The appreciation, that NUA, in this case, we're

282
00:10:34,970 --> 00:10:38,050
talking about the $800,000, that capital gains

283
00:10:38,050 --> 00:10:40,730
payment tax is not due until the shares

284
00:10:40,730 --> 00:10:41,290
are sold.

285
00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:43,090
You do not have to hold it for

286
00:10:43,090 --> 00:10:43,410
a year.

287
00:10:43,830 --> 00:10:44,550
So if you want to sell in a

288
00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:45,030
week, great.

289
00:10:45,110 --> 00:10:45,950
If you want to hold it for a

290
00:10:45,950 --> 00:10:47,010
couple of years, go for it.

291
00:10:47,170 --> 00:10:49,190
But you've locked in long-term capital gains

292
00:10:49,190 --> 00:10:49,950
on that appreciation.

293
00:10:51,010 --> 00:10:52,330
So that person who says, gee, I'm not

294
00:10:52,330 --> 00:10:53,470
sure I really can afford that.

295
00:10:53,630 --> 00:10:54,810
They have that option though.

296
00:10:54,910 --> 00:10:56,730
They could certainly sell some shares.

297
00:10:57,410 --> 00:11:00,270
They'd have some capital gains in the experience

298
00:11:00,270 --> 00:11:00,950
as well.

299
00:11:01,570 --> 00:11:04,010
But that may be part of that equation.

300
00:11:04,970 --> 00:11:07,070
Now, if they opted to do this, just

301
00:11:07,070 --> 00:11:08,890
in this hypothetical, someone said, oh, I'm going

302
00:11:08,890 --> 00:11:10,890
to take half of those shares or whatever.

303
00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:13,430
Can they come back next year and take

304
00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:14,130
the other half?

305
00:11:14,950 --> 00:11:15,450
They would not.

306
00:11:15,570 --> 00:11:16,270
That's a good question.

307
00:11:16,370 --> 00:11:18,010
And this is where people get sideways sometimes.

308
00:11:18,190 --> 00:11:19,970
I talk about this lump sum distribution.

309
00:11:20,350 --> 00:11:22,390
When you want to pursue an NUA transaction,

310
00:11:23,710 --> 00:11:24,910
you've got to get it all done in

311
00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:25,670
one calendar year.

312
00:11:26,210 --> 00:11:28,410
So whatever shares I want to take, if

313
00:11:28,410 --> 00:11:29,790
I do them all, if I do half,

314
00:11:29,970 --> 00:11:31,990
those go to my non-qualified brokerage account.

315
00:11:32,570 --> 00:11:34,970
The rest of that account, the lump sum

316
00:11:34,970 --> 00:11:37,130
distribution has to go to my IRA or

317
00:11:37,130 --> 00:11:37,950
be paid out or whatever.

318
00:11:38,090 --> 00:11:39,330
It's got to come out of the 401k.

319
00:11:40,930 --> 00:11:43,230
If there's stuff left over in that account

320
00:11:43,230 --> 00:11:45,470
the following year, you can't leave shares there

321
00:11:45,470 --> 00:11:47,350
to NUA again the following year because that

322
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:50,870
would disqualify the lump sum distribution requirement.

323
00:11:51,450 --> 00:11:53,630
So it would basically nullify your original NUA

324
00:11:53,630 --> 00:11:54,210
distribution.

325
00:11:54,470 --> 00:11:55,390
So good question.

326
00:11:55,490 --> 00:11:57,370
You can't do the other half the following

327
00:11:57,370 --> 00:11:57,690
year.

328
00:11:58,190 --> 00:11:59,330
Don't try to get too cute.

329
00:11:59,650 --> 00:12:02,250
No, I will say, because I've seen this

330
00:12:02,250 --> 00:12:05,830
happen before, sometimes dividends will trickle into the

331
00:12:05,830 --> 00:12:07,750
account the next year, or maybe the company

332
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:10,670
will make a profit share contribution earlier than

333
00:12:10,670 --> 00:12:11,190
next year.

334
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:13,890
Those will not disqualify the lump sum distribution.

335
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:16,750
Any contributions that go into the account for

336
00:12:16,750 --> 00:12:18,790
the previous year when you did your NUA

337
00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:20,870
distribution, don't worry about those.

338
00:12:20,950 --> 00:12:22,230
Those aren't going to ruin the lump sum

339
00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:23,350
distribution qualification.

340
00:12:24,050 --> 00:12:24,150
Right.

341
00:12:24,630 --> 00:12:27,910
So maybe now we could go talk about

342
00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:29,150
what are the occasions?

343
00:12:29,290 --> 00:12:31,570
When do I have this opportunity to start

344
00:12:31,570 --> 00:12:33,730
thinking about these kinds of opportunities?

345
00:12:34,290 --> 00:12:36,530
Yeah, that's important because not everybody can just

346
00:12:36,530 --> 00:12:38,050
raise their hand and say, I want to

347
00:12:38,050 --> 00:12:38,450
do NUA.

348
00:12:39,010 --> 00:12:41,590
You have to hit what we call trigger

349
00:12:41,590 --> 00:12:41,970
events.

350
00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:43,630
And there's only four of them.

351
00:12:44,650 --> 00:12:46,810
One of them is age 59 and a

352
00:12:46,810 --> 00:12:47,310
half.

353
00:12:47,630 --> 00:12:49,170
59 and a half, once you hit it,

354
00:12:49,290 --> 00:12:49,850
that's a trigger.

355
00:12:50,270 --> 00:12:51,810
I like to think of it as your

356
00:12:51,810 --> 00:12:52,730
light goes on.

357
00:12:52,890 --> 00:12:54,610
Your NUA light is on, you're now eligible.

358
00:12:55,370 --> 00:12:56,470
You don't have to jump right away.

359
00:12:56,570 --> 00:12:58,230
You don't have to do the NUA distribution

360
00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:59,870
in the year you turn 59 and a

361
00:12:59,870 --> 00:13:00,350
half.

362
00:13:00,510 --> 00:13:02,590
Just recognize that your light is now on

363
00:13:02,590 --> 00:13:05,130
and then it'll stay on for years until

364
00:13:05,130 --> 00:13:05,870
you activate it.

365
00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:07,630
And we'll talk about activating the light.

366
00:13:08,490 --> 00:13:09,890
But 59 and a half is one.

367
00:13:10,570 --> 00:13:12,630
Separation from service is another.

368
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:16,130
Disability, only for the self-employed.

369
00:13:16,270 --> 00:13:17,390
And then death.

370
00:13:17,970 --> 00:13:19,830
So really the ones that we see are

371
00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:22,750
59 and a half and separation from service.

372
00:13:23,330 --> 00:13:25,830
And then if that person doesn't proceed with

373
00:13:25,830 --> 00:13:28,150
NUA on either one of those occasions, their

374
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:30,630
beneficiaries would have the opportunity based on the

375
00:13:30,630 --> 00:13:31,210
death trigger.

376
00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:32,190
Yeah.

377
00:13:32,190 --> 00:13:33,890
Which none of us are hoping for that.

378
00:13:33,890 --> 00:13:34,490
Right.

379
00:13:34,690 --> 00:13:35,910
All right.

380
00:13:36,010 --> 00:13:39,910
So these are big occasions.

381
00:13:42,250 --> 00:13:46,810
And what could disrupt my, turn off my

382
00:13:46,810 --> 00:13:48,050
light, as you put it?

383
00:13:49,010 --> 00:13:50,710
So I may not say I'm going to

384
00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:53,190
take that stock or take a rollover or

385
00:13:53,190 --> 00:13:53,850
lump sum.

386
00:13:55,310 --> 00:13:57,950
Necessarily, I might be still working at 59

387
00:13:57,950 --> 00:13:58,510
and a half.

388
00:13:59,590 --> 00:14:02,030
Maybe there's plenty of good income and I

389
00:14:02,030 --> 00:14:04,070
don't want that tax yet, as an example.

390
00:14:05,450 --> 00:14:08,190
So you said that can stay on, that

391
00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:09,830
there's an opportunity to continue.

392
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:12,350
I could do that at 62 now, perhaps,

393
00:14:12,450 --> 00:14:12,690
right?

394
00:14:14,330 --> 00:14:15,970
What could disrupt that?

395
00:14:16,450 --> 00:14:16,550
Yeah.

396
00:14:17,090 --> 00:14:20,330
And that's where, again, people don't realize that

397
00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:22,130
their actions have consequences.

398
00:14:22,430 --> 00:14:24,470
So if I'm working and I've got this

399
00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:27,630
million dollar stock in my 401k and I

400
00:14:27,630 --> 00:14:29,290
turn 59 and a half, my NUA light

401
00:14:29,290 --> 00:14:31,290
is on and it's going to stay on.

402
00:14:31,630 --> 00:14:32,610
And then a couple of years later, I

403
00:14:32,610 --> 00:14:33,630
haven't done anything with my account.

404
00:14:33,730 --> 00:14:35,090
I haven't made any changes to the account.

405
00:14:35,430 --> 00:14:36,870
Then a couple of years later- Make

406
00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:40,690
your additions, your money going in every week

407
00:14:40,690 --> 00:14:41,330
or whatever it is.

408
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:44,210
Still participating like normal, getting my company match

409
00:14:44,210 --> 00:14:45,370
and making my salary deferrals.

410
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:46,950
Maybe I reallocate a little bit with some

411
00:14:46,950 --> 00:14:47,710
of the mutual funds.

412
00:14:47,770 --> 00:14:50,030
I'm not really doing anything egregious with my

413
00:14:50,030 --> 00:14:50,270
account.

414
00:14:50,610 --> 00:14:50,710
That's not allowed.

415
00:14:50,810 --> 00:14:51,370
That's not a problem.

416
00:14:51,370 --> 00:14:51,590
Yeah.

417
00:14:51,610 --> 00:14:52,210
It's all good to go.

418
00:14:52,850 --> 00:14:56,030
But if let's say now I'm 62, 63,

419
00:14:56,270 --> 00:14:58,470
my NUA light is still on because of

420
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:59,570
my 59 and a half trigger.

421
00:14:59,570 --> 00:15:01,210
And I say, I need to take a

422
00:15:01,210 --> 00:15:02,450
couple of dollars out because I want to

423
00:15:02,450 --> 00:15:03,530
take the family on vacation.

424
00:15:03,930 --> 00:15:04,630
I'm still working.

425
00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:09,650
My 401k allows in-service distributions.

426
00:15:10,110 --> 00:15:11,430
I take $10,000 out.

427
00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:15,990
That transaction will, what I like to think

428
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:18,610
of, makes my NUA light start to flash.

429
00:15:19,190 --> 00:15:21,670
I've activated it by doing this distribution.

430
00:15:22,630 --> 00:15:25,210
Now I do have to go now.

431
00:15:25,330 --> 00:15:28,350
I've got to do my NUA transaction in

432
00:15:28,350 --> 00:15:31,250
that calendar year when I activated that light.

433
00:15:32,370 --> 00:15:34,550
If I don't- In that case of

434
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:39,050
the withdrawal, like you described, a distribution, it's

435
00:15:39,050 --> 00:15:41,870
not necessarily that it has to sequentially be,

436
00:15:42,130 --> 00:15:45,870
oh, I take the stock distribution first.

437
00:15:46,250 --> 00:15:48,010
It just has to be done in that

438
00:15:48,010 --> 00:15:49,570
same calendar year, you're saying.

439
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:50,150
That's right.

440
00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:50,510
That's right.

441
00:15:50,570 --> 00:15:51,630
So if your light is on and if

442
00:15:51,630 --> 00:15:53,530
you do it, take a distribution or where

443
00:15:53,530 --> 00:15:56,450
some people get sideways, even if you do

444
00:15:56,450 --> 00:15:59,790
an in-plan Roth conversion, it's basically when

445
00:15:59,790 --> 00:16:02,410
you generate a taxable event, a distribution, an

446
00:16:02,410 --> 00:16:05,950
in-plan conversion, that is what activates that

447
00:16:05,950 --> 00:16:06,710
NUA light.

448
00:16:07,090 --> 00:16:09,510
So if I take this distribution in January,

449
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:11,490
February, March, I've got some time.

450
00:16:11,510 --> 00:16:12,550
I've got a few months here to get

451
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:13,770
this NUA transaction done.

452
00:16:14,330 --> 00:16:17,910
If I don't act on that, then at

453
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:20,450
the end of the year, 1231, my NUA

454
00:16:20,450 --> 00:16:23,830
light, based on that 59.5 trigger, goes

455
00:16:23,830 --> 00:16:24,150
out.

456
00:16:24,890 --> 00:16:29,870
So if someone inadvertently, unaware of this NUA

457
00:16:29,870 --> 00:16:33,970
opportunity, happened to take an in-service withdrawal

458
00:16:33,970 --> 00:16:37,570
because they needed cash, is 59.5 the

459
00:16:37,570 --> 00:16:38,090
key there?

460
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:40,470
If they did it at 58, it's okay.

461
00:16:40,910 --> 00:16:42,210
Didn't disqualify them.

462
00:16:42,270 --> 00:16:44,590
But if they did it after, unaware, after

463
00:16:44,590 --> 00:16:46,170
59.5, it's not okay?

464
00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:47,250
That's a good question.

465
00:16:47,390 --> 00:16:47,490
Yeah.

466
00:16:47,510 --> 00:16:48,470
And that's accurate.

467
00:16:49,090 --> 00:16:51,410
Basically, the stuff you did prior to that

468
00:16:51,410 --> 00:16:53,230
trigger is not going to hurt you.

469
00:16:53,590 --> 00:16:55,150
So once you hit that trigger and the

470
00:16:55,150 --> 00:16:57,270
light comes on, now is when we're looking

471
00:16:57,270 --> 00:16:58,270
at your transactions.

472
00:16:59,090 --> 00:17:01,010
And inadvertent is a good word because that's

473
00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:01,930
what we see a lot of times.

474
00:17:02,030 --> 00:17:05,970
People make inadvertent moves, not understanding the consequences,

475
00:17:06,290 --> 00:17:09,310
and they ruin their NUA opportunity.

476
00:17:09,869 --> 00:17:11,190
But it's not the end of the world.

477
00:17:11,670 --> 00:17:14,569
This person that turns 59.5 hits the

478
00:17:14,569 --> 00:17:16,430
trigger, and then does an in-plan conversion,

479
00:17:16,810 --> 00:17:17,890
isn't aware of what they do.

480
00:17:18,030 --> 00:17:20,690
They inadvertently activate it, and then they don't

481
00:17:20,690 --> 00:17:21,990
act on that light.

482
00:17:21,990 --> 00:17:22,250
Right.

483
00:17:22,349 --> 00:17:23,130
Three years later.

484
00:17:23,550 --> 00:17:23,670
Right.

485
00:17:24,329 --> 00:17:26,390
If they then separate from service a few

486
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:29,370
years later, their trigger light goes back on.

487
00:17:29,490 --> 00:17:31,070
So NUA is going to be available at

488
00:17:31,070 --> 00:17:31,650
that point again.

489
00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:34,030
Just for clarity, for those who might not

490
00:17:34,030 --> 00:17:37,570
have heard that term separate from service, essentially,

491
00:17:37,790 --> 00:17:41,370
that's just retire, leave the employer, move to

492
00:17:41,370 --> 00:17:42,250
a different employer.

493
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:46,070
Just essentially, you're no longer an active participant

494
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:49,870
in the plan, essentially, because you've left that

495
00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:51,670
employer for one reason or another.

496
00:17:51,970 --> 00:17:52,490
Accurate?

497
00:17:53,070 --> 00:17:53,410
Exactly.

498
00:17:53,650 --> 00:17:54,370
100% accurate.

499
00:17:55,330 --> 00:17:56,410
And I've had that question.

500
00:17:56,510 --> 00:17:57,950
I had a person that worked at a

501
00:17:57,950 --> 00:17:58,230
company.

502
00:17:58,350 --> 00:17:59,410
They had good company stock.

503
00:18:00,390 --> 00:18:01,930
They separated from service.

504
00:18:02,010 --> 00:18:05,050
They left that company, and they left the

505
00:18:05,050 --> 00:18:06,170
401k money there.

506
00:18:06,290 --> 00:18:07,930
They left the stock there, et cetera.

507
00:18:08,170 --> 00:18:09,650
They did take a job at another firm.

508
00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:10,770
So they weren't retired.

509
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:13,350
They were still working, but they had separated

510
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:15,150
from service from that original company.

511
00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:17,770
So they didn't lose the opportunity to do

512
00:18:17,770 --> 00:18:19,590
NUA because they took another job.

513
00:18:20,590 --> 00:18:21,370
They were separated from service.

514
00:18:21,630 --> 00:18:23,050
And also- Oh, sorry, go ahead.

515
00:18:23,350 --> 00:18:25,130
No, I was going to say, when you

516
00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:27,450
do the NUA transaction, you can leave the

517
00:18:27,450 --> 00:18:27,570
money.

518
00:18:27,570 --> 00:18:30,550
Once you've left that company and your trigger

519
00:18:30,550 --> 00:18:33,110
light goes on, when you ultimately process your

520
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:36,110
NUA distribution, if you were staying at that

521
00:18:36,110 --> 00:18:37,450
company, if you didn't leave the company, if

522
00:18:37,450 --> 00:18:38,710
you were acting on your 15 and a

523
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:41,890
half trigger, if you do still work, because

524
00:18:41,890 --> 00:18:43,930
you can do this while you're still working,

525
00:18:44,610 --> 00:18:47,150
you cannot continue to participate in that plan.

526
00:18:47,970 --> 00:18:49,310
That's an important note.

527
00:18:49,670 --> 00:18:51,690
That's a big note.

528
00:18:52,030 --> 00:18:52,130
Yeah.

529
00:18:52,130 --> 00:18:52,890
It's a big note.

530
00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:57,070
So you said earlier about, I hit my

531
00:18:57,070 --> 00:18:57,930
15 and a half trigger.

532
00:18:58,050 --> 00:18:59,470
I'm still putting money into the plan.

533
00:18:59,730 --> 00:19:01,290
I don't want to proceed with this yet.

534
00:19:01,670 --> 00:19:04,470
That is probably a wise move because like

535
00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:06,690
we just said, once you do NUA and

536
00:19:06,690 --> 00:19:08,570
you do the lump sum, you have basically

537
00:19:08,570 --> 00:19:10,230
cashed out and you cannot go back into

538
00:19:10,230 --> 00:19:10,630
that plan.

539
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:13,590
That's a great caveat to know.

540
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:14,010
Yeah.

541
00:19:14,110 --> 00:19:16,130
That's a significant detail.

542
00:19:16,830 --> 00:19:19,210
So now this other situation, the gentleman or

543
00:19:19,210 --> 00:19:22,410
woman who moved to another company.

544
00:19:23,330 --> 00:19:25,810
So they've separated from service, the trigger light

545
00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:31,570
is on and they decide, well, instead of

546
00:19:31,570 --> 00:19:34,750
having the 401k here, the 401k there, maybe

547
00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:35,970
I'll roll this thing over.

548
00:19:37,250 --> 00:19:39,470
That's when they have to make this decision,

549
00:19:39,570 --> 00:19:39,790
right?

550
00:19:39,890 --> 00:19:43,770
About don't just bring all that money over

551
00:19:43,770 --> 00:19:45,650
and lose that opportunity.

552
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:48,810
You can take advantage of pulling out the

553
00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:49,910
stock at its basis.

554
00:19:50,110 --> 00:19:50,970
Exactly.

555
00:19:51,130 --> 00:19:53,630
Because if that person that has left the

556
00:19:53,630 --> 00:19:56,670
company, if they proceed with a rollover and

557
00:19:56,670 --> 00:19:59,430
they roll all their 401k into an IRA,

558
00:19:59,810 --> 00:20:03,090
they have eliminated the opportunity to do NUA.

559
00:20:03,290 --> 00:20:05,410
You can't move that company stock into the

560
00:20:05,410 --> 00:20:07,990
IRA and then do the NUA distribution.

561
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:11,790
The stock must be transferred out in kind

562
00:20:11,790 --> 00:20:14,730
from the 401k directly to a non-qualified

563
00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:15,470
brokerage account.

564
00:20:15,670 --> 00:20:18,030
And then everything else can go to your

565
00:20:18,030 --> 00:20:18,390
IRA.

566
00:20:19,850 --> 00:20:20,310
Very good.

567
00:20:21,850 --> 00:20:25,270
And you mentioned stock funds can also participate

568
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:26,370
in this program.

569
00:20:26,590 --> 00:20:27,870
Can you explain that?

570
00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:28,890
Yeah.

571
00:20:28,990 --> 00:20:31,230
So with a stock fund, when you leave

572
00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:35,710
your company, they will typically just convert that

573
00:20:35,710 --> 00:20:37,690
stock fund into actual shares.

574
00:20:38,050 --> 00:20:39,570
So they just take however much money you

575
00:20:39,570 --> 00:20:41,470
have in your stock fund divided by the

576
00:20:41,470 --> 00:20:43,330
share price, the current share price for the

577
00:20:43,330 --> 00:20:44,930
stock, and then they will go ahead and

578
00:20:44,930 --> 00:20:45,790
distribute those shares.

579
00:20:46,010 --> 00:20:47,790
So yes, you can certainly do it with

580
00:20:47,790 --> 00:20:49,230
a stock fund when they convert that to

581
00:20:49,230 --> 00:20:49,450
shares.

582
00:20:49,810 --> 00:20:52,610
You can do it with private stock.

583
00:20:52,730 --> 00:20:54,790
You can do it from an ESOP plan.

584
00:20:55,130 --> 00:20:56,650
So there's a lot of flexibility as far

585
00:20:56,650 --> 00:20:58,590
as where that stock is coming from and

586
00:20:58,590 --> 00:20:59,410
the type of stock.

587
00:21:00,590 --> 00:21:00,850
Very good.

588
00:21:01,970 --> 00:21:04,490
So Andy, again, we're talking with Andy Ives

589
00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:06,350
of the Ed Slotin Company.

590
00:21:08,810 --> 00:21:11,970
What's the calculus that should go into this?

591
00:21:12,030 --> 00:21:13,310
How do I decide if it's a good

592
00:21:13,310 --> 00:21:14,810
idea or not?

593
00:21:15,070 --> 00:21:18,130
I would think, hey, capital gains is less

594
00:21:18,130 --> 00:21:20,170
than income tax.

595
00:21:21,290 --> 00:21:23,390
Shouldn't this be a no-brainer or is

596
00:21:23,390 --> 00:21:24,650
it more complicated than that?

597
00:21:25,390 --> 00:21:27,170
Well, again, that gets back to the art

598
00:21:27,170 --> 00:21:29,470
of NUA and it's identifying that tipping point.

599
00:21:30,750 --> 00:21:33,430
We say that NUA doesn't make sense unless

600
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:36,930
you have quote-unquote highly appreciated company stock.

601
00:21:37,510 --> 00:21:39,490
Well, highly appreciated to me might not mean

602
00:21:39,490 --> 00:21:40,810
highly appreciated to you.

603
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:46,290
Any delta could make it worthwhile, but is

604
00:21:46,290 --> 00:21:49,570
it really worth going through all the activity

605
00:21:49,570 --> 00:21:50,070
you're saying?

606
00:21:50,490 --> 00:21:50,850
That's right.

607
00:21:53,290 --> 00:21:55,530
I've had people call and say they had

608
00:21:55,530 --> 00:21:59,950
a $25,000 cost basis and the value

609
00:21:59,950 --> 00:22:01,430
of the stock was $50,000.

610
00:22:01,730 --> 00:22:03,110
So 25,000 appreciation.

611
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:06,870
When you do the math, capital gains on

612
00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:09,230
that versus ordinary income, maybe there'll be a

613
00:22:09,230 --> 00:22:10,470
couple of thousand dollars tax savings.

614
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:13,370
Is it worth it to that person to

615
00:22:13,370 --> 00:22:14,410
proceed?

616
00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:17,410
I've seen other ones where- A job

617
00:22:17,410 --> 00:22:18,510
even holder, so to speak.

618
00:22:18,550 --> 00:22:18,870
Exactly.

619
00:22:19,190 --> 00:22:20,950
Now, if this same person called and they

620
00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:23,370
had a $25,000 cost basis and the

621
00:22:23,370 --> 00:22:26,910
value of the stock was 500,000, that

622
00:22:26,910 --> 00:22:28,370
in my mind would make sense to pretty

623
00:22:28,370 --> 00:22:30,190
much anybody that you want to proceed with

624
00:22:30,190 --> 00:22:30,370
that.

625
00:22:30,510 --> 00:22:33,250
But again, identifying that tipping point where it

626
00:22:33,250 --> 00:22:33,670
makes sense.

627
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:36,310
Interestingly, it couldn't even make sense if there

628
00:22:36,310 --> 00:22:37,190
was a penalty involved.

629
00:22:37,490 --> 00:22:38,290
And I'll give you an example.

630
00:22:39,010 --> 00:22:41,330
Let's say a person was only 50 years

631
00:22:41,330 --> 00:22:43,230
old and they had been working at a

632
00:22:43,230 --> 00:22:45,310
tech company or something that the stock has

633
00:22:45,310 --> 00:22:46,710
just rocketed it up.

634
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:49,230
And I'll use the same example from the

635
00:22:49,230 --> 00:22:51,170
beginning when I said $200,000 basis and

636
00:22:51,170 --> 00:22:52,610
$800,000 of appreciation.

637
00:22:53,010 --> 00:22:54,770
They're 50 years old, they leave that company.

638
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:59,030
So they've separated from service, trigger event, the

639
00:22:59,030 --> 00:22:59,710
light goes on.

640
00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:03,640
That person could do NUA.

641
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:09,020
If they did the NUA transaction, they're only

642
00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:09,460
50.

643
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,160
So it would be a distribution from their

644
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,120
plan, they're under 59 and a half, there's

645
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:14,240
going to be a 10% penalty.

646
00:23:14,620 --> 00:23:17,280
The 10% penalty only applies to the

647
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:18,000
cost basis.

648
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,680
So in that situation, there would be a

649
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,160
penalty if they did a full distribution in

650
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,540
the 200,000 of $20,000.

651
00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:29,560
But would that be worth it to get

652
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,680
long-term capital gains on the $800,000

653
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,220
for ordinary income?

654
00:23:35,020 --> 00:23:36,660
So again, that's where you get into the

655
00:23:36,660 --> 00:23:37,580
art of NUA.

656
00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:38,720
Does it make sense?

657
00:23:38,860 --> 00:23:39,800
Does it make sense to pay the tax?

658
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,220
How high an income they have and how...

659
00:23:42,220 --> 00:23:42,500
Exactly.

660
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,420
So there's definitely some mathematical equations that can

661
00:23:45,420 --> 00:23:46,780
be done, which you can ballpark it.

662
00:23:46,860 --> 00:23:48,000
You can say, all right, capital gains is

663
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,140
this, ordinary income is this.

664
00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:50,040
And you can get an idea of what

665
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:50,980
the tax savings would be.

666
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:51,560
Yeah.

667
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:52,880
Yeah, absolutely.

668
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:53,380
All right.

669
00:23:53,460 --> 00:23:55,860
So that's the kind of thing that you're

670
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:58,240
a good advisor will help you navigate as

671
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:58,960
you go through this.

672
00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:00,360
What are some of the things we should

673
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:04,120
be thinking about when we talk about NUA?

674
00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:08,400
What are the other considerations that people should

675
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:09,080
be aware of?

676
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,400
Well, there is...

677
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:11,920
So a couple of things.

678
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:12,840
I will say that...

679
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,800
So if a person is eligible for NUA

680
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,760
and they've got a good NUA opportunity and

681
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,880
they proceed with the NUA distribution, so now

682
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,300
they've got this company stock has been sent

683
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:23,840
out of their 401k and is now in

684
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,540
their non-qualified regular brokerage account.

685
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:28,480
As I said, they're going to pay ordinary

686
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,180
income on the cost basis now.

687
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,680
They will pay long-term capital gains on

688
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,100
the NUA, that appreciation that occurred within the

689
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:38,940
plan, long-term capital gains no matter when

690
00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:39,600
they sell it.

691
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,420
If they hang on to those shares, there

692
00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:45,420
could certainly be additional appreciation after the money

693
00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:46,700
came out of the 401k.

694
00:24:47,340 --> 00:24:49,900
I call this an NUA parfait as far

695
00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:50,360
as the tax.

696
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:51,920
You can picture the parfait with the layers.

697
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,320
So the bottom layer is the ordinary income

698
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:55,500
tax on the basis now.

699
00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:58,140
The second layer is long-term capital gains

700
00:24:58,140 --> 00:25:00,880
on the appreciation when you sell it.

701
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,060
And then the third layer is any appreciation

702
00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:05,140
after distribution.

703
00:25:05,780 --> 00:25:09,780
That appreciation will also get long-term capital

704
00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:11,600
gains treatment, but it has to be held

705
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:12,320
for a year.

706
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:13,980
So when you take it out of the

707
00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:18,100
plan, any additional appreciation is going to be

708
00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:19,960
long-term, but only if held for a

709
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:20,160
year.

710
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,700
A good problem to have.

711
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:25,260
Yeah, a good one to have, for sure.

712
00:25:25,540 --> 00:25:26,580
It is a good problem to have.

713
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,920
Don't wait the year you're dealing with income

714
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,180
tax rates or short-term capital gains on

715
00:25:35,180 --> 00:25:39,560
the gains since the distribution you're saying.

716
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,360
Exactly, that additional appreciation.

717
00:25:41,860 --> 00:25:43,340
So that's one thing to be aware of

718
00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:44,840
that impacts most people.

719
00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:48,600
There's an interesting nuance to NUA, which I've

720
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:49,720
seen it a couple of times and it's

721
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,300
a function of record keeping.

722
00:25:53,020 --> 00:25:57,280
So there's something called specific identification method where

723
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,160
I've been talking about examples of a $200

724
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,920
,000 average cost basis, et cetera, $800,000

725
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:03,600
appreciation.

726
00:26:04,420 --> 00:26:07,500
If the plan or if the person, the

727
00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:11,960
participant keeps very good records, you can NUA

728
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,440
specific shares.

729
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,880
So if you're buying shares at the markets

730
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,540
doing this over your career, you can NUA

731
00:26:19,540 --> 00:26:22,000
the low cost shares and not NUA the

732
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:22,840
high cost shares.

733
00:26:22,980 --> 00:26:24,120
So if you have a record of when

734
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:26,460
you bought these specific shares, you can pick

735
00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:26,940
and choose.

736
00:26:27,580 --> 00:26:28,960
Well, that brings me to one of the

737
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:29,960
questions I was going to ask.

738
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,540
What if it's the inverse?

739
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:38,620
Your million dollars has gone down in value.

740
00:26:39,020 --> 00:26:41,780
It's gone down $200,000 and it's worth

741
00:26:41,780 --> 00:26:42,620
$800,000.

742
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,780
Would I even consider this?

743
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,640
Well, you wouldn't consider it if you didn't

744
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,280
have any appreciation, but I will say that

745
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,240
you can reset your cost basis.

746
00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:57,600
And we've seen some whiplash in the markets

747
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:58,240
here recently.

748
00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:01,860
If I have a decade before I'm going

749
00:27:01,860 --> 00:27:03,880
to retire, let's say, before I'm going to

750
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,200
possibly hit a trigger and I've been buying

751
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,740
company stock and now my company stock, my

752
00:27:08,740 --> 00:27:11,900
average cost basis is let's say $40 and

753
00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:13,820
the company stock was at $70, but now

754
00:27:13,820 --> 00:27:15,500
it has tanked for whatever reason.

755
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,160
And now the price per share is down

756
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:18,680
to $30.

757
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,700
I could sell everything and buy it back

758
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:23,960
at $30.

759
00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:26,700
There's no wash sale rule within a 401k.

760
00:27:27,140 --> 00:27:28,340
So you can go ahead and reset your

761
00:27:28,340 --> 00:27:28,740
basis.

762
00:27:29,260 --> 00:27:30,720
Now you're going to have to spend some

763
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,140
time waiting for that to come back up,

764
00:27:32,580 --> 00:27:36,280
but it is a way to take advantage

765
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:37,320
of a market downturn.

766
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:39,000
I actually just wrote an article about this

767
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,020
just last couple of days, which will be

768
00:27:41,020 --> 00:27:44,080
in our next newsletter, talking about some opportunities.

769
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:45,360
Could be an opportunity.

770
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,080
Your timing's right and you want to hold

771
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:47,480
the stock.

772
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,160
We've seen a lot of volatility in the

773
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:50,940
market recently.

774
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,700
Is there any strategy that someone should be

775
00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:55,260
thinking about?

776
00:27:55,380 --> 00:27:56,580
That might be one example.

777
00:27:57,380 --> 00:27:59,580
Yeah, certainly that resetting your cost basis is

778
00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:00,260
definitely one.

779
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,560
The opposite can be true.

780
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,160
We all know that when you've got these

781
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,540
whiplash volatility in the market, some people lose

782
00:28:09,540 --> 00:28:10,420
sleep over that.

783
00:28:10,420 --> 00:28:13,300
You could have what is a very good

784
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:15,540
annual opportunity after years and years of buying

785
00:28:15,540 --> 00:28:17,260
company stock, but then a person says, I

786
00:28:17,260 --> 00:28:19,280
just can't sleep with all this volatility and

787
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:20,520
they sell their company stock.

788
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,040
They sell it within the plan.

789
00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:26,500
They just eliminated the opportunity to do annual

790
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:27,020
in the future.

791
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,420
So panic selling certainly could be in the

792
00:28:32,420 --> 00:28:33,880
long run a bad, bad decision.

793
00:28:35,140 --> 00:28:36,480
Andy, this has been great.

794
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:38,980
Love getting all this information.

795
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:39,700
Thank you.

796
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,560
I think this is one of those topics

797
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:47,320
that advisors are familiar with, but it's good

798
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,560
to go over some of this and really

799
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:50,940
understand how it works.

800
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,100
And for consumers, they may not even be

801
00:28:56,100 --> 00:28:56,720
aware of it.

802
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,260
So it's great to have the opportunity to

803
00:28:58,260 --> 00:28:59,680
share this along the way.

804
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,200
So if you have a retirement plan where

805
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,440
you've got company stock, pay attention, share this

806
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:08,020
with others.

807
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,520
If you've got others you know in your

808
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,880
family or friends who might have, co-workers

809
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,600
might have this kind of thing, share the

810
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,800
podcast so they may benefit from it as

811
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:17,020
well.

812
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,280
Andy Ives, thanks for being with us as

813
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:20,740
our guest.

814
00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:23,760
Anything you want to plug for Ed Slott?

815
00:29:23,860 --> 00:29:25,380
When's the next opportunity?

816
00:29:25,380 --> 00:29:28,220
It sounds kind of complicated, but it's not

817
00:29:28,220 --> 00:29:29,080
really that terrible.

818
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,580
As you just said, if you have a

819
00:29:31,580 --> 00:29:33,960
company slapping your plan, certainly be aware of

820
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:34,120
it.

821
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:35,480
And if you want to proceed with any

822
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:36,900
way transaction, just call the plan.

823
00:29:37,060 --> 00:29:38,000
Say, listen, I want to do this.

824
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,440
They'll typically have some paperwork for you to

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00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:39,780
fill out.

826
00:29:40,060 --> 00:29:40,920
They know about it.

827
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,620
They will walk you through the step.

828
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,640
Let them hold your hand and you could

829
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:45,800
save a ton of money in taxes.

830
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,780
Until next time, everybody keeps striving for something

831
00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:49,060
more.

832
00:29:50,860 --> 00:29:52,820
Thank you for listening to Something More with

833
00:29:52,820 --> 00:29:53,560
Chris Boyd.

834
00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:56,020
Call us for help, whether it's for financial

835
00:29:56,020 --> 00:29:59,920
planning or portfolio management, insurance concerns, or those

836
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:01,980
quality of life issues that make the money

837
00:30:01,980 --> 00:30:03,060
matters matter.

838
00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:06,700
Whatever's on your mind, visit us at somethingmorewithchrisboyd

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00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:09,900
.com or call us toll free at 866

840
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:15,420
-771-8901 or send us your questions to

841
00:30:15,420 --> 00:30:19,380
amr-info at wealthenhancement.com.

842
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,500
You're listening to Something More with Chris Boyd,

843
00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:23,120
and

844
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:40,060
I'll

845
00:30:40,060 --> 00:30:45,760
see you next time.